More than a year passed since Adobe decided to stop supporting Flex framework and gave it away to Apache Foundation. This writeup is based on the conversation I had with my colleague Anatole Tartakovsky in January of 2013. In this conversation I’ve been representing the HTML5 community while Anatole fought for Flex framework. I’m trying to find arguments against using FLex framework even though I believe that it remains the best and the most production way for developing Web applications. I’ll be just playing devil’s advocate here. Anatolepoor and ill also believes that Flex is the best framework available today, but in our company we often argue about the tools to use for various projects. We hope that Web developers find this conversation useful and thought provoking.
Yakov. If you read this blog, most likely you know about our company, Farata Systems. Our engineers work on both consulting projects and develop a product for our sister company SuranceBay that creates software for insurance industry. Technology-wise, we have three practices:
1. Rich Internet Applications using Apache Flex and Adobe AIR
3. eCommerce applications (we have about 20 Hybris developers)
On the server side we use nothing but Java. We’re hiring people, but noticed that it’s getting a lot more difficult to find experienced Flex developers. Last week we made an offer to a Flex developer, but before accepting it, he asked me to share my opinion about the future of Flex. He knows about our company and is glad that he’ll be joining our team, but at the same time he’s worried that Flex skills won’t be a useful asset on his resume. I can read his mind, “I’ll waste a couple of years doing Flex, but my classmates, colleagues and the rest of the progressive mankind will be studying HTML5. Is it worth it?” I did my job defending Flex, now it’s your turn, Anatole, and I’ll try to prove you wrong.
Anatole. As I just learned, I’ve been working with useless technologies for 30+ years, and every technology I liked is not in use anymore. In my opinion, Flex framework has no future.
Y. What a nice way to defend Flex! Do you want to say that your programmer’s life was wasted?
A. I want to say that it was extremely interesting, but Flex has no future.
Y. Was this by M.Zhvanetsky who said, “Who cares about the soup if so much is going on in the kitchen“?
A. I’d rather say that Flex has no future, but it has the present. HTML5 has the future, but the present is dark and foggy. First, we need to decide if we live in the present or in the future. Second, it’s very difficult to properly guess the technology worth studying and using. Of course, the tools that are popular on the market will win, but they will also lose by attracting legions of low paid developers. Besides, being unproductive these tools won’t allow timely releases of high quality software. This leads to further degrading of software projects and programmers’ pay. There is a high end market, where more expensive and rare tools are being used by well rounded developers. And there is mainstream that uses various versions of HTML, Visual Basic and the like. These tools were never highly productive, but their better competitors could not attract even a one tenth of the developers community. At some point the psychiatric situation on the market causes people to not pay attention to the good tools, but rather go with the flow.
Y. Our company is not a typical one – each of the owners remains highly technical, and we don’t have any political reasons to select or reject any technology. Sure enough, we are very carefully monitoring the latest trends in the industry to be able to offer help in IT consulting. But we are down to earth people who want to deliver our own software as fast as possible without jeopardizing the quality of the product. You may be surprised, but new Flex projects are being started and the Flex-to-Flex redesigns are happening on the Wall Street – we continue getting requests for help. Such projects are typically run by smart and technically savvy managers who are not afraid to voice an opinion that may differ from the general software policy in their organiation. But an average manager does not want to take a risk and use a non-popular technology with a literally non-existent talent pool. Anatole is running the project where all developers know Flex and Java, and he’s not planning to switch to a different set of technologies any time soon. Why do you prefer Flex and AIR.
A. I’m planning to switch and will do so, when I’ll see a better than FLex technology that meets our needs. I agree to switch, but it’s like “Tomorrow I’ll marry the Queen of England. Half of this plan is accomplished – I agree“. The problem is to find a replacement. IMO, technologies like HTML5 will change the style of programming and the resulting product too.
Y. After making such strong statements, you need to say something to improve your credibility. Please tell the audience what did you work on in the beginning of this century.
– a much more mature JSON that would support the skeleton generation on both sides
– an ability for creation of the finite state machine and CSS (give it another 2-3 years to appear)
Unfortunately, during the last seven years Flex didn’t have competitors. HTML is the future, but it’s a remote one. I don’t see it real in the enterprise applications for at least two years, but more likely till 2016.
A. True. If you want to write HTML5 application you need to seriously reevaluate what your application should be able to do. You’ll need to simplify it. A typical enterprise Web application serves the consumers that don’t use it anyway, and it also serves the professional business users that help consumers.
Y. Please don’t just make such ungrounded statements. Explain, what this means.
A. This means that consumers spend very little time using these Web applications – they they don’t use such applications from 9 to 5. These applications are being used on a weekly or monthly basis. The requirements for such applications are a lot simpler than for heavily used applications for professionals. The back office applications must increase productivity of business users and support a lot more functions. If you need to support wide variety of users, you’ll need environments allowing configurable applications that can be compiled and support quick refactoring for the new class of users or when the business requirements change.
Y. As far as I remember, Flash Player was also blamed for security holes, wasn’t it? Besides, since HTML5 is a mainstream, all major browsers treat security issues very seriously and all security holes will be closed a lot faster than any single vendor like Adobe, Microsoft, or Oracle would do.
A. The roots of Adobe’s security holes are in attempts to merge two incompatible security models of Acrobat and Flash Player. Now you can run Flash code inside PDF, which revealed security holes originated in incompatibility of the sandboxes. Most of these holes can be plugged by changing security settings of Acrobat and not by fixing Flash Player’s errors. But overall, Flash Player has less security issues than infamous cross-scripting of Web browsers and the likes. We are able to create secure Flash applications that would certainly had security issues should they be written in HTML5. What I really miss in Flash Player is the ability to integrate with telephony and work with peripherals that exist in natural environments. Unfortunately, Flash Player is not evolving fast enough to support new technologies for input/output and the voice interface. The main problem of Flash Player is that it was literary frozen since 2008. During the last four years Adobe didn’t do much to bring it up to date.
Y. It’s been more than a year since Adobe announced that their main interests for Flash are games and videos. You can’t expect any improvements in Flash for enterprise applications. Don’t forger that Adobe remains the owner of Flash Player, and no matter how great the Apache Flex contributors are, their hands are tied – the runtime is out of their control. I don’t like the way Adobe handled open sourcing of Flex, but they have business to run, and if they make money elsewhere, no one can force them to allocate proper resources to implement Flex and Flash Player improvements. Do you have any reasons to believe that Flex won’t lag more and more behind HTML5 technically?
A. I don’t have any hopes that Flex won’t lag behind. So far Flex and Flash player is still far ahead – we still live in the future comparing to HTML5. Yes, HTML5 has some features that make it appealing for enterprise and mobile development, and it would be great if Flash Player would continue evolving in these directions too. The main reason why Flash Player is dying is that ten years ago Adobe rejected Apple’s requests to create tools for their platform. Adobe considered this platform unproductive, and Apple had to recreate equivalents for all Adobe’s products themselves. After that, Apple stopped allowing Adobe’s products on their market. You can call it politics or personal vendetta, but unfortunately there is nothing you can do about it. Without Apple’s support Adobe’s tools will always have hard times. Will it change in the next couple of years? Not likely, unless the structure of both Adobe and Apple’s management will change.
Y. Based on what I see, Adobe won’t be willing to make steps toward Apple. Adobe prefers selling expensive and profitable software to corporations, and it’s not likely that they’ll return to Web browser’s plugins that are not welcomed by majority of the developers.
A. This is true for the most part. But historically, there were precedents when spin-offs were created to purchase some of the software products from large companies. Adobe is not the first company specializing in milking old cows (making money from old products). I.e they don’t improve some of their products, but purchase established third party companies and invest in cross-integration with their products charging the newly acquired customers for the new functionality. The chances are that non-profitable Flash platform can become a candidate for such a spin-off. Adobe might sell the Flash Player for a small chunk of cash to people who are interested in improving this technology. Unless this happens, Apache Flex is a still baby. I’ve attended several meetings in Apache Flex community, but I’ve yet to see people who can lead this community.
Y. There are lots of excellent Flex software developers in the world who could do it, but they simply can’t afford it. As I said, there is not many companies that can continue using a technology based on its merits. Flex experts need to make a living and feed their families. They can’t spread themselves thin doing both Flex and HTML5. They either work as independent contractors and want to keep their hourly rates high, or work as enterprise employees and don’t want to go against corporate IT policies. Many of them prefer to stay focused on one major technology to keep their skills in demand.
Our company is in minority, but we are not afraid to become known as one of the last Flex shops. We believe in hiring well rounded developers that are open to adding Flex to their skill set understanding that in a couple of years they may need to learn something else. By the way, some of the people are still doing Cobol and dine in Michelin-starred restaurants on a regular basis. The if-statement exists in every programming language. In some cases you’ll need to put a curly brace after if, and in some languages you need to write elseif as one word. Some languages support classical inheritance, and some – prototypal. This doesn’t scare me, but it seems that lots of people are reluctant to accept that learning something new is a way of life of professional software developers.
Y. Did you have a chance to get familiar with the Microsoft’s language TypeScript?
A. No matter what language will win, the conversion from ActionScript will be mechanical more or less. It all comes down to your way of thinking and to the level of complexity you can afford in a compiled environment vs interpreted one. There is a major difference in approaches to programming in ActionScript
A. If this developer would work in my team since 2006, he’d skip lots of frameworks like Mate or Parsley without losing much. People who say that their frameworks help in programming are the same that were promoting the Axe Soup before. One way or the other – good people is the solution. Frameworks rarely help. Tools do. HTML has a number of tools to test UI on different platforms. Similar tools were created for Flex and cross-platform CSS and skinning. But I don’t believe in miracles. I haven’t seen a single-code-base applications that work well on Android, iPhone, and desktop browsers.
A. People who promote the same design for different platforms usually talk about publishing information and not about interactive applications. If you need to publish the information using different layout managers, responsive design will help. But enterprise applications often have more than one target audiences. Consumers need an easily downloadable application and Web browser works fine here. Mobile applications should be compiled either into the native code or into some byte code that performs close to the native one. But UI must be different based on the available screen real estate and use touch interface.
If you’ll take any framework that works on both desktop and mobile devices you’ll get two sets of controls and the need to maintain two different source code.
A. Without frameworks I’ll have less UI controls to chose from. Frameworks may address the need in controls and convenience of UI.
Y. and browsers incompatibilities
A. Maybe. But when I hear that someone has the same codebase for the desktop browser and other devices, I want to see it and make suer that it doesn’t falls into the publishing realm.
Y. Of course, the Boston Globe site is a classical example of responsive design in publishing. But we can even take an application that we use in our book – Save Sick Child http://enterprisewebbook.com/#_responsive_design_one_site_fits_all. We have five areas (div’s) that include forms (a donation form or an online auction), each form is a separately loadable module, and if on the wide screen we could display three of these div’s horizontally and two underneath, on the narrow screen each of these sections will be scaled down and displayed one under another. And this is not just a publishing application.
A. When I’m porting an application to a tablet 800×600 with UI having large controls and fonts, I need to think about this application as a service to minimize the need of data entry. Don’t forget that half of the screen will be taken by a virtual keyboard, and if you ignore this, the user will have to work with your UI via a keyhole, and even these five separate div’s may not fit. So I’ll need to modify the UI and use the set of controls that will require minimal data entry. I don’t want to give the same UI to the consumers and back-office users.
Y. I keep trying to bring the money into our conversation, but you are avoiding this subject. Sure, it’s better to be healthy and wealthy, than poor and ill. But most of the enterprise projects are poor and ill, i.e. have limited budget and developers are not overqualified. Why a modern enterprise employs many low-qualified people is a subject of different conversation – let’s not go there.
Coming back to my five div’s, we can use CSS to hide what has to be hidden in certain devices, fonts can become larger, and we can use so called fluid grids to have our layout float. It may not be perfect, but it’s a compromise.
A. You can’t turn a truck into a car and then into a bike just using styling. I’m for complete redesign to use the features of a particular platform to its fullest. And the reason why IT has so many low qualified people is because these people allowed non-technical people to lower their qualification. We can help them to improve their qualification.
Y. Most people don’t want it. They live comfortably with what they know.
A. You and I are sitting now in a lobby of a fancy hotel that differs from a motel, right? Why? Because we’ve decided that the service has to be well compensated. And people working in this hotel do their job well. There is always market for the high-end things, which were produced better then others of the same type. If you’ll be producing low quality software, you’ll hate your job, which will shorten your life. Why?
Y. I hear you, but don’t agree with you. It’s great that you and I can afford now (it may change) to work only with interesting projects. But many young programmers have a long way to go before they will establish themselves to pick what they really want to do. Id your message “Just do what you like and the day will come”?
A. If you need to work hard to establish yourself, why doing it where the crowd is? Do it in the unpopular areas.
Y. Most of the people prefer to walk on the paved roads. It’s a reality.
A. Compare software and automotive industries. Some time ago you could have selected any car as long as it was black Ford of a certain model. Then General Motors started mass production of cars where people could select different models of different colors. By dong this they pushed Ford back. The software industry will go through the process of customization. We already reached the point when the software created for a certain enterprise is being replaced by a software-as-a-service (SAAS). The next task is not to create several versions of the same page with CSS, but understand what the user is doing with this page and to make it as convenient for the user as possible. If this will be happening, then software developers will transform into people who belong to service industries.
Y. I may disappoint you, but there were many attempts to cultivate a new creature – a cross of the user experience (UX) specialist and a software developer – it didn’t happen. These are different people with different mindsets.
A. in the end the winning applications will be not the ones that will have nice looking design, but those that will do what the user needs and will do it conveniently.
I have to finish this rather large transcript although our conversation didn’t stop here. Thank you for reading this far. I’m not going to give you a summary with recommendations or predictions of what tool or programming language is the best bet in today’s development of the cross-platform UI. Pick what you like, dig deep, and enjoy your work. It’ll pay off sooner or later.
6 thoughts on “HTML5 or Flex Framework”
Good conversation, thanks for writing it up. Your comment that you are not afraid to being known as the last Flex shop reminds me of the first chapter in “The Passionate Programmer” where it reads “Helping the old systems die comfortably and with dignity is a task that should not be underestimated.” You can make a lot of money on the trailing edge!
However, I decided I was going to stop marketing myself as a freelance Flex developer for 2013 and switch to native iOS. So I have been watching WWDC2012 videos like I used to do for Adobe Max and 360|Flex. I have a stack of iOS books I am making my way through. I bought your guys “Enterprise Development with Flex” book as I knew it contained a lot of good stuff, but alas, work keep me very busy and I only got to browse it. And then November 2011 happened.
I read the Spice factory link. I found it amusing that it ended with one last shot in the Flex architectural framework “war”. Remember when that was the big issue being debated? Well, that and convincing Adobe to not go forward with the Flex 4 FX prefix. Which is funny, because now in Cocoa-Touch I am using prefixes all the time due to the lack of namespaces. NSArray, NSDictionary, UIView, UIButton, etc.
I don’t know what to really advise my clients who used Flex 3 and Google Maps for Flash to build their big GPS software that allows police to monitor those under house arrest. Now if they want an iOS app version of their product, I can help there!
Very interesting subject and good food for thoughts.
I meant “MS Word” 🙂
I stop reading the discussion more or less in the half – too long…
I have been JEE developer for the past 12+ years but I always have been looking for better user experience so I tried Flex, WebGUI (.net), DevExpress ASP.NET components, RichFaces, created my own JSF 2 components using bootstrap L&F + jQuery, etc.
Since I’m an application developer what I need is to bring solutions quickly and spend the least time possible creating frameworks and/or components. So, since a couple of years, I decided to use ExtJS for LOB applications. I feel, with the little time I used Flex (I used CDB BTW), that ExtJS is a good replacement for Flex in LOB applications.
Developers like me needs a complete UI framework, not sparse bits.